Pivot Point

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You're listening to locally produced programming created in KUNV Studios on public radio. KUNV 91.5. Welcome to the Pivot Point, where we talk about all things pivot,

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all things business and all things Vegas.

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I'm your host, Bardia. Let's get the ball rolling. All right.

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Hello everybody and welcome back to another exciting episode of The Pivot Point.

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I am Bardia and I have a very special guest with me today. So we are talking today about the entrepreneurship and leadership behind luxury retail businesses. If you've been in Vegas, you've known and been on the strip, you have definitely seen all those high-end stores and now we have a special guest today from one of those stores, Nordstrom in particular, and his name is Pat McGowan. Thank you for being here with me today.

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Pat McGowan, Founder & CEO, Nordstrom My pleasure, Bardia.

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Thanks for having me.

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It's my pleasure for sure. So you have a career that spans not only Nordstrom but multiple global luxury retail department stores as well as many different roles in those companies. Can you tell us a little bit

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about your background and your career story? Sure, there's some good I think nuggets in there for anybody because it's some serendipitous moments that happened and some things I didn't really expect that kind of set me on my journey. I grew up in Ohio and moved out to California. I think when I was a kid I watched the Rose Bowl and saw the Sun out there and I wanted to live in California So I moved out on my own to go to school and I went to Cal State Northridge and got my degree in journalism But when I first arrived I needed a job and on the same day Ralph's grocery store called me and offered me a job And a company called Kenny shoes, which is now gone and they were located in the Glendale Galleria So I literally flipped the coin except I did doesn't really matter, I'm going to go to school, I just need a gig. And it came up tails, which meant I was going to the mall. And I think about think about that Bardia. And it really ended up shaping so much because when I went to Kenny's, someone from Nordstrom came down and recruited me. And I ended up working at Nordstrom while I was going to school. And I always think about if it would have come up heads, I guess I'd be running a grocery store, right? But those moments that you don't think are going to lead to anything special, I think it's important that you try to be present to those moments, and you don't understand how it may shape you. So I go to Nordstrom, I'm selling shoes, someone believes in me more than I believed in myself and said you should probably get into management. And so I started as a manager in shoes and kind of worked my way down the pyramid, as we call it at Nordstrom. My first store manager job was in Santa Barbara. And I think the lesson there is that if you want something bad enough, you're willing to sacrifice because at the time we lived in South Pasadena and it was 120 miles each way. So I did that and it was worth it. So then I managed a couple of other stores, moved around the country with Nordstrom, opened up our store in Boca Raton, Florida, did that for a few years, then became a regional manager for the Nordstrom Rack in Virginia, so moved again. Then moved to New Jersey as a regional manager for our full line stores in Boston, Connecticut, New Jersey, and New York. And then left the company for a little bit and went to work for Neiman Marcus, and I was a VP GM for them in Short Hills, New Jersey. But realized quickly that culture matters a ton, and Nordstrom fits my values and I think I fit theirs. So it was important for me to get back and ended up moving back to Cali and worked at the Santa Monica store for a couple of years. And then six months ago, this job came up in Vegas and they tapped me on the shoulder and asked me if I would come here and see what I could do with this store because we believe this store has a ton of potential that maybe hasn't been realized for some time. So we're working hard and building a culture where our people feel proud to come to work and our customers love coming to see us.

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Absolutely. Something you touched on even when we were talking a little bit ago was the philosophy of Nordstrom's. Yeah.

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Why is that so important to you? You know, I don't think I, and I think this is a message I have two boys, they're 27 and 21, and I talk to them all the time, not just about chasing the money. Chase what you're passionate about and chase an environment that you wanna work in. I love to say that people don't quit their job, they quit their boss. And I think that's important in our culture to realize that there's a big difference. I always talk to our new hires and I tell them there's a big difference between waking up in the morning and feeling like I've gotta go to work or I get to go to work. And quite frankly, with Nordstrom, I've never had a morning where I woke up and felt like, ah, I got to go to work today. Because it's about our people. It's about elevating ourselves for the customer and for each other. It's a company that believes in empathy and servant leadership, which is critical to me that we'll probably talk about a little bit. And not that Neiman's didn't have that. It was just different, just as every company has its own culture and Nordstrom fit my beliefs quickly

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I realized that and that's why I've been with them for so long. Yes, so servant leadership was a very interesting Anecdote because I had never heard of it. Okay, I've learned of so many different leadership over the course of you know Classes and stuff, but I never really looked it into it. Yeah now so broadly defined. I think it deals with leadership in the service of others, where the leader is mostly focused on the greater good, and less so on their own personal objectives. And so what is most meaningful to you?

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Well, first of all, I love the way you just classified it there, because that is truly what it's about. One of the things I've been talking to our leadership team a lot about is that we don't manage people. I don't want to be managed. I don't think you want to be managed. We manage expectations. And if you do that, if you have expectations and you manage those and you lead and inspire people through your example that you set, then it takes out any kind of hidden bias or personal approach to it because you're managing the expectation, but you're leading and inspiring people. And I think there's a big difference there. So when you look at servant leadership, it's really at its core about, I will never ask you to do something I'm not willing to do. So the team will see me in stock room sweeping, mopping out on the floor, fixing, straightening, because that's what it's about. People don't care. This is one of my favorite leadership phrases. And it's funny, my wife laughs at me because we'll go to movies or I'll be watching a TV show and I'll hear a quote and I'll write it down and she's like, you're going to turn that into a meeting aren't you? Yes. Yes, I am so one of my favorites is people don't care how much you know until they know how much you care and That I think at the core is what servant leadership is because again, you're not managing people You're leading by the example that you set you realize that people again probably are gonna quit their boss not their job And if you don't have empathy if you can't put yourself in other people's shoes, I just don't think it's going to work. It may work in the short term, but I don't think in the long term it's going to work by just command and control. Do as I say, but not as I do. That's at least in my mind not a way to lead. It has to be do as, watch me, okay? And I'm not going to do everything right. I'm going to make mistakes. Hopefully, I'll make them fast and learn from it and won't make the same one over and over. But I think that leadership by example, people notice it because I know for me as a salesperson, the leaders I grew from were the ones I saw out on the floor talking to their people, picking up paper off the floor, helping customers. Absolutely. That was important to me. Yes. Yes.

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And I think you have an extra advantage because where you started in shoes, you have a tremendous perspective from inside the company itself, whereas versus someone else who just got their degree, became store manager of Nordstrom out of nowhere, but you worked your way up, you climbed that ladder. And so how do you believe, how did you, I suppose, how did you know you wanted to instill these values into your followers?

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Because the leaders that I looked up to and that were mentors for me had a similar style of leadership. And the managers that I didn't enjoy their leadership as much, I took examples from that also.

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Interesting.

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I thought, you know what, I won't approach it that way if I'm ever in that position. And I will tell you, Barty, you talk about growing up with a company, we do have a promote from within philosophy. I can't think of really very many, if any, store managers that we hire from the outside. Most have the experience that I did. We started in the stock room, on a selling floor, whether it be shoes or clothing, whatever it might be. And the beauty about shoes is you're literally on your hands and knees servicing customers. And that's what our job is about, being of service to our employees and being of service to our customers.

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Yes, I think in a way not much really changes.

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Yeah, I agreed. Yes, agreed. It shouldn't. There should be basic core fundamentals that we always strive for. And being of service to our folks and our customers are definitely one of those.

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Yes, so what experiences on the floor did you leverage to achieve the role of store manager?

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I found early, I love to sell. I enjoyed the experience, but I wanted more. I wanted to lead. I wanted to inspire the folks around me, and I found myself over time gravitating toward managerial duties, if you will, wanting to do more than sell. And gosh, salespeople in our company can make a great living and we have so many professionals that I admire. For me, I wanted to move, we call it moving down the pyramid because our customers are at the top of the pyramid and then our salespeople, and then we work for them. And that's another thing I would stress is that folks in our store don't work for me. I work for them. And that's part of being a servant leader. I would never say you report to me. No, no, no, I support you. You're closest to the customer. So I'm going to learn more from you than I am being at my desk or going through reports. Being on the floor of service and support to our salespeople and my department managers is really the key. So you ask, you know, what did I learn from the selling floor? Well, how to serve his customers. I watched how salespeople get inspired, what motivated them, what didn't, what was demeaning to them, what was motivational to them, and I think I took some of that and then just tried to be myself when I got into a leadership role.

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Absolutely. Well, I think you just touched on what I was gonna ask about, is how do you motivate others around you?

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I think, again, it goes back to that leadership by example, but there are some leadership traits that I think people take for granted, and I think more and more over time, they've become more relative and relevant and important to leaders. And a couple of those are being empathetic. You know, I guess in my younger years, I don't know that empathy was something that was taught or talked about much at a leadership role. Empathy matters, transparency, even vulnerability. You know, being yourself, I've seen so many times, Bardia, that we promote somebody and when they get a title, sometimes they change. And that shouldn't be the case. You have to lean into being your authentic self. There's a reason that we put you into a leadership role. And it's because of who you are and who you were at whatever job that you had. So I think empathy. I think transparency, being honest all the time. Sometimes it's a tough message. Yes, but we have to be transparent and honest, but you have to do it with professionalism and sympathy and empathy But still get the message across one of the learnings I've had over time Again going back to kind of a bumper sticker phrase if you will that I think works Well is what we tolerate we encourage and it took me a while to realize that as a leader I think at first I wanted to be everybody's friend And I think there's still a little bit of that in me, but I also learned over time that you know again I've got to call folks out with professionalism But I have to help them elevate themselves when they fall short and we'll be a better team for it Just by holding everybody and myself accountable. I loved how you touched on empathy. Yeah, because

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Something that we even learned in our classes is sometimes it can be a controversial topic in the workplace. Depends on the industry. I think in the retail service industry, it definitely has its place. What does empathy mean to you? And how important is it in being a leader? I think part of it means being a great listener

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and listening without judgment. I think that is a key approach to leadership. And when I say without judgment, because when you've been in leadership for a while, you have similar situations that come up. For example, someone comes in late, let's say they're scheduled at one o'clock, they come in at 130. If you're really listening without judgment, no matter how many times that has happened, you will go to the person say, Hey, are you all right, it's 130, you're, you're scheduled at one, I just want to make sure you're okay. But at least again, you're not just thinking, well, they're late, you know, people can't go to lunch, the customers were waiting, etc. You have to listen without judgment. And even though it's the 500th time you've had a situation where someone came in late, look at it on its own. And I think that is is critical to listen without judgment. And also, not listen to respond, but listen to really learn. There's a difference. Sometimes we're talking to each other. And you're asking me a question, or you're responding to my question I'm just waiting to fire back what my answer is Well, did you have to be in the moment and really listen to to respond and have an opinion on it after hearing them out? Without judgment. Yes, I think

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Developing your active listening skills. Yeah connecting your connecting skills like it's so important to Networking to being a good co-worker being a good friend for everyone around you.

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Yeah, we don't know. It's interesting, I do morning announcements or we have rallies and I always end the announcements by saying the same thing. Take care of each other, then take care of the customer, have a great day. But it starts with take care of each other and that comes before take care the customer, quite frankly, and we're known for our service, we're known for taking care of the customers, but if we don't have that empathy and enjoy coming to work and Feel a part of something meaningful and important We're not going to be able to give the level of service to the customer that they deserve So taking care of each other first, which means having empathy. I don't know what your day looked like today I don't know if you woke up this morning and had some issues that you dealt with I don't know what's going on in your life But let's at least realize that people walk in their own shoes and they bring some baggage with them and let's be empathetic and sympathetic of that Absolutely. Absolutely. So I want to move on to a bit of a fun topic

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What did it mean to you to receive the John W Nordstrom award, oh boy

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So just a little background the John W. and Nordstrom Award is for one employee every year in the entire company is awarded the JWN award. And how they do it is the family will come to some meeting or some function, so the Nordstrom family will show up and you have no idea. And then you start thinking, okay, they're here for the JWN award, and you start looking around who's going to get it. In my case, when they came into a recognition meeting in Miami that I was at, I started looking around thinking, oh, who's gonna get it, who's gonna get it? And then when they call your name, it's a bit surreal. And it's very humbling. And what it did mostly was remind me that, A, I picked the right company to work for because I love their values and it mirrors what I believe. And B, it also reminded me of all the folks that have supported me over time. And every year they fly us to Seattle and we have dinner with the new winner. And it's pretty neat. It's pretty neat. It's kind of like, I guess, our version of winning an Oscar.

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Yes, absolutely. I like how it ties back into the community that you work for and that you represent.

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Absolutely, absolutely. And that's so important for us. We don't want to look at it when we open a store just as commerce. One of our beliefs, our firm beliefs, and part of our culture as a company is, leave it better than you found it. So if we're gonna enter into a community, we wanna be part of the community, be stewards to that community, not just make a buck and sell stuff, but actually what does the community believe in? What are the things that they need? How can we, from a philosophic approach, help some different organizations within the community, and again, be part of the fabric of that community. And we want it to feel like from a merchandising standpoint, and this is something I'm working on in the Las Vegas store, is making sure our product reflects the community that we serve. And then even the bigger picture is, making sure our sales force, our team, represents the diversity and inclusion and belonging that we see from the community. So in other words, I always like to say, people shop with people. So when you come into our store, hopefully you're gonna see someone that reflects you, that looks like you. And gosh, we all benefit so much from diversity. So again, we don't wanna just open a store for commerce. We wanna do it also to have compassion and be a part of the fabric of the community.

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Yes, I think over the course of your career, you've just done so much. I've heard of, you've awarded scholarships to students.

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Yes.

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Organized volunteer events.

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United Way is a big focus of ours.

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Yeah.

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Let me know, what is United Way worldwide? United Way is really giving back. It's interesting. It ties in a ton for me and has great meaning, probably for me individually more than others, because I will tell you a quick story. I'm a dog. I'm an adopted person. My parents adopted me and they adopted me through United Way And a quick story is that over time over the years? I ended up finding out who my birth parents were I found out that I have three sisters that I didn't know about I didn't find this out brought it to us in my 30s. I got a letter from the United Way and Catholic Charities, which is an organization within the United Way, say that my birth parents wanted to meet me. And from there, everything kind of flowed. I called and this is another weird one, my birth mom's name is Pat, which is odd because my parents that adopted me had no idea. They weren't really allowed to know anything about my birth parents. So I'm

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sorry to get off on a tangent there. I think you've come full circle. Yeah.

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but it also again one of those things that Click with me that this is part of my culture and I love Nortium because of that because they supported the United Way United Way is an umbrella and has a ton of different organizations under them But they're all about giving back to the community that you serve

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Absolutely, and I think you already touched on my next question, but how have these opportunities in volunteering or equipping the company with more diversity. How have these helped you build more unity with your teams that you employ?

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Oh gosh, I think when you're out there together doing anything as a unit, as a team, I love sports. So I tie a lot of analogies back to building a cohesive team that gets along, that isn't divisive, that, you know, I was talking to the managers yesterday and said, you know what, the word toxic is so dangerous. You hear that word about work environments. And I said, obviously here, we want it to be more like a family. And when you are a family, you know, sometimes it's dysfunctional. Sometimes you disagree, you have arguments, but in the end you take care of each other. And that's what I'm kind of trying to build at the store. So when you go out and do a function in the community as a team, you just get this feeling of pride that you're giving back to the customers in the community and giving back to what matters to the folks that come in and spend money with us that we're fortunate enough to have come into our store. So that helps build cohesion. That helps build empathy, sympathy, care for each other. And I think it sends a great message.

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Yes, I think one of the ways, correct me if I'm wrong, I'm not a hundred percent, but I think while you were at Nieman's, something important that you did during the pandemic was create a social media video kind of platform that kind of tied you all together.

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Yeah, I just came up with this feeling because we were so disjointed at the time. Obviously the store wasn't open, but we were still going in to fill online orders because customers would order online and that business grew during the pandemic, believe it or not, but we weren't going into the store. So I wanted to get this feeling of kind of, we got this, you know, we got each other's back. So I did a video on my own, just kind of to motivate my team and, hey, we're here for each other, reach out, we've got this. And it kind of spread throughout the company. Everyone kind of took that on and ran with it. So there were videos rolling throughout the company just reminding each other that even though we were apart, we weren't going into the stores, we were still part of one family and one team. So I thought that was important to stay connected during those times.

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Absolutely. I think social media was a huge tool, and I think it continues to be even at your capacity at Nordstrom, I can imagine.

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Yes, absolutely. And for our salespeople, we have a tool, we call it personal book, where we can actually communicate with customers, send them a link, we can put together outfits and different apparel items for them, shoes, whatever it might be, and we send the customer the link and they can click on it and purchase the merchandise, our salespeople get credit for it, they stay connected with the customer, and they can put that on their Instagram page, they can do different things with it. So social media is critical. For our folks that really look at this and view this as their profession. They utilize all the tools that they can to build connections and experience with our customer. I think at Nordstrom, we're blessed with having a great reputation on service. I have really, as I grow in my career and grow in my position, I kind of don't use the word service as much as I do now experience. I want the customer to have an experience. Whether they shop online or in our store, it's great for Nordstrom. As a store manager, I obviously want them to come into the store. So when I get people ask me, well, who's your biggest competitor? And obviously we can talk about Saks and Niemann's and so forth, but I always tell new hires, I think our biggest competitor is a customer's couch. Because they can sit at home and order anything they want on their iPad while they're watching Breaking Bad or whatever their favorite show is, there's the session. But I want them to come in the store. And if they do make that decision to come in the store, then we have to provide an experience that they're gonna remember.

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Yes, it reminds me of, I'm not sure how widespread this is, but there's this new technology where you can try on clothes digitally in your own home or have someone pick out the clothes for you, send them to you, things like that. But I have always appreciated the in-store experience. I continue to, even after the pandemic. It was so heartbreaking to see stores shutting down. Barney's was a big one.

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Yeah, that was, even for me, again, that's competition. I never want to see a store close. Absolutely. When I was in Santa Monica, the Bloomingdale's in that center closed while I was there. And people thought, oh, that must feel good, you must be happy about it. I said, no, not really. I said, we may get some of their customers, but you want to be in a center that's thriving, that's competitive, it helps you up your game when you have competition right down the hall from you, and it sends a message that it is a robust mall. So I hate to see retailers close.

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It breaks my heart.

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And Barney's was one that definitely broke my heart. And even I think about Nordstrom, I mentioned Santa Barbara, it was the first store that I was store manager for. We closed that store several years ago. And we closed a few stores during the pandemic. And it's heartbreaking to see that because you know, kind of the blood, sweat and tears that goes into building a great culture where people enjoy coming to work and then taking care of the customer. So yeah, it's painful.

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Absolutely. And this kind of ties into maybe a bit of a loaded question. I don't know how much you can show.

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Load it up.

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How do you see the retail industry changing in the next few years?

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Oh boy. It's funny. It's one of our core values is to be curious and embrace change. You know, I think about how much business we do now online, and it's a large percent of the company's business, much larger than we would have anticipated, even in 2019. Because obviously COVID kind of sped that forward. But I see it changing only in regards to product. I think there are core fundamental things we always need to do. Again, giving service, giving an experience on the customer's terms, is the most critical thing that we can do. Having an environment where people can come in and make a great living and get promoted and move around the country like I have is critical. There are fundamental things that will never change. It's about people. It's always going to be a people business. The product will change. How we sell it will change. Where we sell it will change. But I'm bullish on what's going to happen going forward. We keep shaking off the remnants of the pandemic. Yeah, we see traffic returning gosh here in Vegas You've got the formula one coming up. You got the Super Bowl coming out the Golden Knights just won the Stanley Cup Yeah, there's a lot to be excited about I drove by the sphere coming down right which is going to be so cool So I'm right. I was gonna just ask you what's the most exciting?

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What it takes the most about Vegas in the next few years?

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I think more and more, well, I'll tell you one interesting thing, Bardia. When I got here, my impression was that obviously a lot of our business is done through tourism. One of the things that excites me after meeting with our mall folks in Fashion Show is that a good half of our business is local. Henderson, Summerlin, all those, there's a lot of customers that do come to the strip. So for me as a store manager, how do I make sure that they want to make that trip to the mall and that we can provide that experience for them? And I'm excited that we have the folks that can do that in the store, and I'm excited that we're adding some new brands. Again, we're very focused on diversity and making sure that we have an employee base that represents the customer. I think we're in a really good spot to grow, so it's an exciting time.

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What impact do you hope to have through your store?

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Oh my goodness. You know, shopping should be entertainment. And again, we talked about you don't know what anyone's gone through when they come in. So when they come in, my hope is that we can make an impact even though we're just selling stuff. That's what we're here to do is sell stuff. My hope is that the customer can actually make a friend and meet someone that's professional that they can lean on. I always think about I've moved around the country so much and when you move there's always these things you think about, oh my gosh, I have to find a dry cleaner and a stylist and hair and a new person for all these different things. If our sales people are great, if someone moves they're still going to stay connected with that salesperson because they're professional, they have product knowledge, they're a subject matter expert and they're almost kind of a friend. They can lean on them. So I hope to make that kind of impact with our customer where they come over and over again because it's a safe space and they can enjoy themselves when they come in our store.

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Yes. And I think a lot of people could even be inspired by your story, even just meeting

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you.

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Thank you. What would you tell someone like that? I always like asking our guests, what would you say to a younger self? But what would you say to like a student looking to just follow in your footsteps?

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You know, I would tell them that Blake Nordstrom told me this once that we're all the sum of our experiences and That resonated with me. So therefore The more experiences that you have I think the more I guess the better you'll be well-rounded as a person So just try things don't be afraid to fail Suck at something today.

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Absolutely.

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You know, just go ahead and do that. Go ahead and fail today, but learn from it. I tell my sons that often. It's just as important to find what you don't want to do, what doesn't inspire you, as it is to find what does inspire you. And again, to me, that flip of the coin that I had at the beginning of my career, I was lucky that happened because I was floating a little bit. I got my degree in journalism, I did some PR work while I was selling shoes with another company, but I didn't love it. I fell in love with Nordstrom and I fell in love with the culture, and I was lucky, I was blessed. But try things. I think that's the way you learn. Don't be afraid. We have limitations for ourselves that aren't real. And it took me people telling me that I could be a great manager because I didn't see that. I thought there maybe there were some things I could do, but I had people telling me that we really think you could. And I think again, as a mentor, hopefully to people, I want to inspire people to really find find their own voice and help them find how good they are. Maybe they don't realize it until someone tells them that they believe in them. Absolutely. Well, I would like

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to continue this conversation for another hour or so. Unfortunately, we can't. We do have to wrap up, but thank you so much for being here.

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Thank you. It's a pleasure.

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Nice to meet you. Absolutely. And I encourage everyone listening, you can go check out Nordstrom's store at the Fashion Show Mall. Maybe you can see Pat there for yourself.

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Feel free to ask for me and say hello.

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Absolutely. And thank you all for listening. Have a good one. Thank you all for listening to the Pivot Point. You can follow us at PivotPointUNLV on Twitter, all one word. You can follow us at PivotPointUNLV on Twitter, all one word. And hope you enjoyed the show.